Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <mailman.9688.1387483876.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
 Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you can help us come up with a design for the website that works, I'm
> sure that the community would be willing to embrace it.

But this is merely an extension of the "code or shut up" philosophy that 
is a detriment to so many open source projects.  As I have stated, it is 
all wasted effort until what "works" is discussed *before* the time is 
spent.  I have tried to start those discussions, but still people want 
to silence me for being "negative".

> We don't have control
> over the macports versions of our stuff any more than we have control over
> how debian packages GNUstep.

Yes, you do.  If it was important to GNUstep as a whole, you'd find a 
way to do that work internally.

> The issue is a Macports issue.   Every email
> I've seen says this.

I refer you back to the MacPorts person who posted here says they'd love 
to have someone step up to be the maintainer for GNUstep.  Did anyone?  
Was it even discussed?  How was it arrived at that the better solution 
was to purge mention of MacPorts from the GNUstep site and instead snub 
Mac OS X users completely?

You see, these are not issues of the site itself nor the code of 
GNUstep.  These are core issues that need to be addressed by those 
steering the project.  Only *then* can you start changing the way things 
are to how they should be.

> Perhaps the best way to handle this is to find a way
> to allow Mac users to build the relevant portions of GNUstep on the Mac if
> they need to.  I must confess, however, that I don't fully understand the
> need to run GNUstep apps on Mac since it is almost akin to trying to
> download and use WINE on Windows.

Again, I don't understand what message you are sending when you say 
that.  Do you or do you not want to provide "a way to port applications 
from Mac to any other platform GNUstep supports"?  If you sincerely do, 
one would think that core to that goal is a statement of how a goddamn 
Mac fits into the picture.

> I believe we need a solution to this problem, but I don't know what that
> solution should be.  Should we talk to the MacPorts folks about the issues?

You should do what makes sense to your actual big-picture goals.  They 
remain unstated as far as I can tell, either here or on the web site.  
It's as simple as making a decision and supporting it.  I mean, maybe it 
*doesn't* make a lot of sense to try and shoehorn a second Cocoa system 
on top of Apple's.  Maybe best practices is to support a VM, cloud 
server, live CD, or whatever the hell *does* make sense from a project 
management standpoint.  It's a necessary complexity that 
organizationally needs to be settled.

> I've, personally, spent too
> many years going to conferences as a vendor (GNUstep booth) and speaking at
> Cocoaheads Mac developer user group meetings in New York, Pennsylvania and
> Delaware to have the idea that we are hostile persist any longer.   We are
> not hostile to Mac developers.  *Period*

Harsh truth: that's a meaningless assertion.  From the website to 
comments here ("do we really want to attract them?"), it is (at best) a 
mixed message.  Don't think an occasional "Oh, baby, I'm sorry; here's 
some flowers." means you're not in an abusive relationship.  
Legitimately change if you want to change, and realize regaining trust 
will not be easy because GNUstep *is* a hostile project (to Mac users 
and otherwise).  Continue to deny it and, well, best of luck getting to 
even $20K on your next crowd funding effort.

> Agreed, it should be on GNUstep's website.   There is some question,
> however, if any effort in implementing UIKit should be done as part of
> GNUstep or part of another project.

No!  Again, this push to implementation is juvenile.  The only question 
that should be addressed at this stage/scale is *what the actual message 
is* of GNUstep in regards to UIKit and/or "mobile" development in 
general.  None of that discussion is happening as far as I can tell.  
Settle it first, and *then* you can think about how to express it on the 
web site.

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