Re: NSToolbar (was Re: Portability/Compatability between GNUstep<---> Cocoa...)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

discuss-gnustep-bounces+lars.sonchocky-helldorf=bbdo-interone.de@gnu.org 
wrote on 14.01.2004 13:11:38:

> On 2004-01-14 17:22:02 +0700 Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf 
<Lars.Sonchocky-Helldorf@bbdo-interone.de> wrote:
> 
> > O.k. I see you are asserting some things. But can you also 
substantiate? Can 
> > you give some facts to prove your claims? (I don't mean this 
rethorical, I 
> > _really_ want to know, because) I have an oposite opinion: Keeping 
GNUstep as 
> > close as possible to Cocoa ensures the interest of (open source (see 
> > sourceforge)) Cocoa developers and helps porting Apps to GNUstep (or 
do you 
> > just prefer the other direction GNUstep -> Cocoa?). I think Apple will 
never 
> 
> In my opinion, this is misguiding. I don't think most of Cocoa 
developers
> has any attention to make their app portable to GNUstep. (only a few of 
them would)

How many Cocoa devs do you know? To how many Cocoa devs did you talk or 
listen? Aren't all your claims based on guesswork anyway? (I did never 
read any post from you at for instance cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

> Additions would be fine if it won't degrade the unity of the programming 
style.
> Which I personally believe that OpenStep has already proved that. But 
I'd
> like to see this (NSToolBar) been voted. And I'd vote to keep it away at 
some point
> and make a proper GSToolBar.
> 
> > release Cocoa for open source Unixes (like *BSD or Linux) even other 
> > comercial Unixes are unlikely and nobody has heard of a planned 
release of 
> > Cocoa for Windows (despite the hordes of Cocoa developers pleading for 
it). 
> > How should this lead to a "perpetual obsolescence for GNUstep" when 
such a 
> > lot of Cocoa developers are eagerly looking for a cross platform 
possibility 
> > for their code? Please enlighten me!
> 
> If the cross platform is really important, they should port their code 
to 
> GNUstep if that's worthed it. ie. They should replace their NSToolBar
> with GSToolBar.

In what possition do you are to define requirements for foreign 
developers? I think we can plead those developers to port their apps to 
GNUstep at max. And we should be happy when they do so (since this would 
increase the userbase of GNUstep). Acting arrogantly brings you nowhere.

If you had a company that would produce some dev tools you had to change 
this attitude very fast or you'd be out of bussiness sooner than you 
think.

> Do not use anything that isn't portable. So I meant,
> Cocoa developers mostly never take portability as a priorities.

If you would read cocoa-dev or macosx-dev@omnigroup.com you'd know 
different.

> If they
> are very concerned of that, They won't use Mac in first place. But I 
hope
> I was wrong.

Really strange assertion! Everybody who wants to do _cross plattform_ 
development has to use _linux_ in the first place to be serious or what?

> > Who did the research? You? Or were it NeXT and Apple? Which company 
was it to 
> > publish "Human Interface Guidelines" for their OS first?
> > 
> > Btw. somebody already pointed out that toolbars have been part of the 
NeXT 
> > Interface ever since (even NSToolbar as private class)
> 
> I think Deek has stated it clear that NSToolBar isn't an interface issue 
{indeed,
> it is, (NS) tool bar was born to be a bad interface - note that I put NS 
because
> I am not against Adobe-like toolbars that much} but technical issue.

What makes an adobe (or for that matter microsoft) style toolbar any 
better? The smaller (harder to hit and indentify) icons? (Note: you can 
reduce the iconsize of NSToolbars too.) The lack of labels? The missing 
possibilyty to show only the icons or the labels? The missing possibility 
to hide the whole toolbar? maybe something else, but I cant guess it, I 
need an answer.

> 
> Woah!
> id.

Lars

>