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Re: RE : Horizontal menus. ...and other interface concepts
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thisguyisi |
Subject: |
Re: RE : Horizontal menus. ...and other interface concepts |
Date: |
Wed, 28 May 2003 02:30:40 -0700 |
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Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote:
On 27.05.2003 05:19:37 Jason Clouse wrote:
This is an idea I was having as well, although rather than make a
"locked-in"
decision at compile, I was thinking the "floating"
OPENSTEP/GNUstep-style menu
should be modified to allow it to "dock" with the top of the screen and
switch
to an Apple-style menubar, which then your could then "tear-off" like
any
sub-menu, but perhaps with a modifier+tear.
I like this idea better than having a compiled in solution: Imagine there
are different users on one machine - everybody would have her/his own
preferences concerning the menustyle. If this is done at compile time it
can't be changed later. A compile time solution would also make binary
distributions of GNUstep more complicated: We would need packages for NeXT
style menus and packages for Mac style menus. Please go for a per user
solution in preferences.app as others already said.
Not trying to knock your idea or anything--sounds quite interesting in
its own
way--but it seems a bit complicated for the end user. And I'm not sure
it's
going to be all that useful.
My impression is that people are very attached to their choice of menu
style.
NeXT fans probably won't ever want to dock their menu upstairs. And
those who
slant toward the Apple way of doing things wouldn't want to have to go to
the
trouble of docking their menus.
Although I am very accustomed to Mac style menus, I'd like to have the
possibility to tear of submenus from the menubar. In the old Mac OS 7
times there was a nifty utility <http://www.mac.org/system/custommenus/>
that permitted exactly that functionality. I missed this ever since (and I
heard this feature was in Rhapsody).
Btw: here is an interesting discussion of that topic:
<http://www.cloudmaster.com/pulsar/rhapsody/>
Both groups would probably want to set a system or user default to one or
the
other and just leave it that way. And I suppose themes should provide
artwork
for both.
agreed
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greetings, Lars
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Lars,
The Raphsody links were interesting. Thanks.
About "Menu Orientation" in GNUstep:
I feel that if the orientation is currently "hard-coded" in GNUstep this
should change.
In what way? Like anything else in the system, if there is more than a
single "locked-down" implementation, it should have a preferences bundle
(in Preferences.app) to facilitate the user's ability to customize the
available functionality to suit their needs/tastes.
Pick one or the other is not the best solution, as it is obvious there
are multiple ideas on how the menu system should behave, with some
preferring the NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP floating vertical menu, and others
preferring the Mac OS X static horizontal menubar.
What I have liked about the NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP Operating Systems is the a
la carte feel to the customizable preferences available. A very friendly
feel. Made me enjoy using and working with the interface. It does what
it does elegantly.
I think this "a la carte" feel should be kept, and extended. Ideas and
opinions on "The Best Way" are always changing. For me, sometimes as
fast as my mood swings. I like my OS and GUI to keep up with me.
Different tasks lend themselves to being interacted with in differing
ways. A GUI should facilitate this, without imposing its "Right Way
(TM)" upon the user. Maybe I like the way the floating menu acts as a
pop-up list of items, but want to keep access to the Disk menu up for my
current session. Maybe I want it to also manifest in the fashion of a
floating, list-like menu.
Perhaps I want to keep track of different disks and their directory
structures visually while working with my tasks. Say I have many
similarly named directories. For instance, doing manual
directory-by-directory backups from my local disk to my removable disk,
or disks. In that case, being able to switch the torn-off Disk sub-menu
from a floating vertically oriented menu into a horizontally oriented
one, where I could let it float, or dock it with a screen edge might
help me keep track of what I am accessing/copying/pasting more easily.
For example the Local disk would be the leftmost menu button after the
torn-off sub-menu title bar, and the backup disk would be in the middle,
with the removable disk farthest right. Now, when I click the menus,
they will extend in different sections of the screen, aiding me in
keeping straight which files I am putting where.
But say I am done with my task, and don't want to have the detached Disk
sub-menu sprawled horizontally across my screen anymore. I still want to
have it "handy" and on-screen, so I'd like to flip it back to a vertical
floating menu orientation and shove it off to the side, perhaps even
"window-shading" it so I only have the "Disk" menu title button showing
on-screen. Hey, I could even be really productive by having a "stack" of
windowshaded detached sub menus in a corner of my screen. That way when
I need to get to a function in one of the "often used" menus, I have
them all in one spot, and can expand the windowshaded menu to display
the submenu options to select what I need to do.
Maybe I want windows and torn-off submenus to "stick" "magnetically" to
each other's edges so I can move groupings of items around on my screen
without haveing to move _each_ _frigging_ _thing_ _seperately_ (a
hellacious idea to Yours Truly). These are all little things that can
easily (well easily from a conceptual standpoint) be incorporated into
GNUstep's functionality by expanding on the menu system.
To address the non-NeXTian camp, I also like what Mac OS X's interface
ideas (and previous Mac OSes) provide: a static place (the menubar
poised atop the topmost edge of the screen) for consistent menu
location. You don't have to think about it because it is _ALWAYS_ there
atop the screen, regardless of which window you happen to be interacting
with. Then there (in previous Mac OSes) was the apple menu, where you
could switch applications, and modify to have other goodies in a single
universal location from session to session, until YOU changed the options.
That said I _do_ like the idea of the functionality of being able to
grab that horizontal menubar, tug it off into a freefloating fashion
verticalyl (or horizontally) oriented menu that I can put anywhere I
want, shuffle between windows, stick magnetically to the one or multiple
windows that have open belonging to that app, and maybe have 4 app
groupings (just for example) arrayed on my screen. Perhaps I would at
some point during the evolution of my session, maybe I'd like to do all
my internet or mail related stuff on their own workspaces. So then I
would like to yank my browser, with it's appmenu, and multiple windows
and dialog boxes off the main workspace to another for browsing. I'd
also like to schlepp my mail client with it's appmenu, torn-off
sub-menus (some floating vertically, some floating horizontally, some
magnetically attached to the window I am using them to work with, some
docked to the screen edge), multiple windows, dialog boxes, and
inspectors off to a different workspace of its own, to seperate and
clarify my tasks and the layout of my session.
I like the concept of Mac OS X's "sheets" (aka dialog boxes) which are
anchored to the window they are working with and associated to, except
it hides what is located in the window the dialog they present is
representing, which, in my experience, influences my choices on what to
do next. Canceling and reinitiating the dialog is a waste of time, and
it is a bit frustrating to have to bother with. Being able to "stick" it
"magnetically" to the window it is associated with and move that
grouping around to double check stuff in other windows is an extremely
functional idea to me.
Personally I dislike the way Microsoft Windows' GUI functions. But I
have to use that OS daily. Ugh, what's a boy to do... There is a program
available called NextStart (http://www.winstep.net) that implements a
NeXTSTEP style menu interface/workspace environment by extending the
Windows Explorer shell. There are also some UI features that resemble
much of the functionality I have touched on that helped make Windows
much more friendly for me. There's also a Dock program called CubeDock
(http://next-station.w3.to/) which has extending rows of tiles which
slide out from beneath when you right-click on the Dock Tiles.
Thankfully there is also WinBrowser (www.winbrowser.com) which is a NeXT
FileViewer style file manager. These make Windows that much more
bearable, and have some nice ideas that could help GNUstep be a little
more friendly and adaptable to user choice. Additionally, I would love
to see GNUstep develop to the point where it's native software can
provide these functionalities (which I consider essential to sane daily
computer usage for me) to the Windows environment, and all other GNUstep
supported systems.
Well, I did hop on a tangent after all, and expanded from my ideas about
menus and sub-menus to addressing general GUI concepts I'd like to see
implemented, so my apologies on going a bit off topic. However I do
think these are all valid and related ideas that should be mapped out
and thrown into the functionality mix of GNUstep. An interface
designer's big challenge is designing one that will facilitate every
user's ability to interact with and use that interface effectively to
compute. Deciding on the "Best Possible Way In Every Instance (TM)" is a
bit of a stretch, and perhaps a bit of a lark. However, having an array
of "Really Great" ways that deal with variable interface needs, that are
adaptable to the current task/moment/session is a surefire way to permit
the users of at least having one, and perhaps multiple, useful ways of
getting done what they need to get done in a way that is the most
compatible possible with what, or the way, they are thinking at the time.
Hopefully this (dissertation? :-) ) is something that was interesting
or useful to you in some way. It helped me flesh out some of my ideas on
how an "ideal" GUI would be adaptable to varying needs, and I think
GNUstep is most of the way there, and wouldn't feel a pinch if extended.
In fact I think it would feel freer and more refreshing to use.
Questions, Comments, Rotten Produce?
-thisguyisi
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., (continued)
- Message not available
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., Dirk Theisen, 2003/05/28
- Message not available
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., MJ Ray, 2003/05/28
- Message not available
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., MJ Ray, 2003/05/27
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., Travis Tilley, 2003/05/28
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., Jason Clouse, 2003/05/29
- Message not available
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., MJ Ray, 2003/05/29
- Message not available
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus., Dirk Theisen, 2003/05/27
Re: RE : Horizontal menus., Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf, 2003/05/27
- Re: RE : Horizontal menus. ...and other interface concepts,
thisguyisi <=
- Message not available