[Discuss-gnustep] Re: GNUstep Environment - the core

[malonowa]

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Philippe C.D. Robert <phr@studiosendai.com>
> To: Nicola Pero <nico@linux.it>; <discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>
> Sent: jeudi 14 septembre 2000 16:35
> Subject: RE: GNUstep Environment - the core
>
>
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Nicola Pero wrote:
> > > Hi Philippe,
> >
> > Hi Nicola...;-)
> >
> > > > The most often heard feedback I get from people trying out GNUstep
is:
> > > > now what do I have to do in order to get the workspace appear.... So
> > > > I really believe it is important to have sth that shows that GNUstep
> is
> > > > not just an API in progress but also a real environment! That`s why
> I`d
> > > > like to see this gnustep-env package. It`s time to do some
> > > > marketing...*grin*
> > >
> > > I tend to think that the best marketing we can do is the one targeted
to
> > > developers.  This fires the non-linear (exponential somtimes :-)
> expansion
> > > which makes a project succesful.  Targeting users is in a certain
sense
> > > because developers will not come if they do not know they can have
> users.
> >
> > You are correct, of course. I was not exact about that, but I always
> talked
> > about interested developers playing with GNUstep - most of them coming
> from
> > OPENSTEP.
> >
> > > But I don't like the word `newbie` about future contributors and I
think
> > > this is not the right attitude.
> >
> > We seem to have a slightly different meaning of the term 'newbie', I
> believe.
> > For me this term is not negative.
> >
> > > In my concrete experience - there is a certain point in the `career'
of
> a
> > > free software hobbist/developer in which he/she wants to stop
> contributing
> > > to other people's projects and start his/her own project.  He wants to
> get
> > > out of the mass - he wants something important with his/her name on it
> :-)
> >
> > That's probably true, yes.
> >
> > > People in this situation will find a very hard competition and very
few
> > > space in GNOME or KDE.  We can offer them instead a great deal of
> > > possibilities, a great deal of projects to be started from the ground
> up.
> >
> > Good point!
>
 I would say that I was a newbie. The thing that attracted me to looking
into
 GNUStep was that I'd already seen NeXt developer on Intel many years ago.
 I've never had the chance to use it though.

 The big thing GNUStep could have above GNOME/KDE to attract developers is
 the interface builder and project centre. That's certainly what made me wow
 about NeXt. Get these two apps. finished as quickly as possible, get a lot
 of good tutorials up there and the developers should flock.

 Why is it that Delphi has such a good following in the Windows world?

> >
> > > I personally enjoy what I can see of GSMail.app and GNUMail.app.
> > > But - I can't use them, and development seems to be stopped.
> > > So - if anyone - anybody - wants to come and start a new mail app,
> > > that would be great.  He/she can freely borrow from the existing code
> > > in GSMail and GNUMail (it's all GNU GPL as far as I know) and organize
> > > its own project.  Of course, the fact someone starts a new mail app
> > > would not have us remove 'write a mail app' from the TODO list till
> > > the new mail app really works :-)
> >
> > Yes, but I'd rather see *one* working app instead of several incomplete
> > projects... And since the GNUstep/ObjC community is (for now) relatively
> small,
> > we should concentrate our man power!
> >
> > > Having a TODO list is very important because people coming from the
> > > outside would ask - what interesting things can I do here ? - or - is
> > > there possibility for me to get involved in this project ? - or - how
> can
> > > I help this project ?  If the only TODO list we have is the one about
> > > improvements of the core libraries, it's clearly attracting only very
> few
> > > people, since the `activation energy' is too high (==to difficult to
> start
> > > contributing), and the return in satisfaction does not seem so much.
If
> > > we had a TODO list with applications and little tools, I think it
would
> be
> > > a nice attraction for people to contribute.  A little application is
> much
> > > easier to start, you have to learn much less, and gives you much more
> > > visibility, fame and satisfaction.
> >
> > Yup, I believe this is important. Now I understand your point.
> >
> > > This task/todo list could include comments, links to the existing
> > > applications, but let people free to decide what to do.
> >
> > Yup!
> >
> > > Not that these things don't need some kind of planning, organizing,
> > > projecting - but in this moment we have no application developers
> > > at all - except Enrico, Philippe, and some other hero.  So, we need
> > > to open our doors as much as possible, and get everyone, whatever
> > > they want to do.
> >
> > I don't see myself as a hero (esp not when doing some sparetime hacks
like
> > PC...)..;-)
> >
> > > People coming in might be at their first time with Objective-C and
> > > OPENSTEP - this does not mean they are `newbies` nor that they need
> > > supervision - they more likely need tutorials, documentation and
> examples
> > > rather than supervision.  If they need help, they will ask, don't
worry
> >
> > Well, here is the difference I pointed out. If they don't know ObjC nor
> the
> > OPENSTEP paradigmas, they are from my point of view newbies in a sense
> that
> > they do not know teh technology. This does not mean they can't code or
> design
> > an app or .... it just means for me that they are compltely new to
> GNUstep.
> >
> > And I never wanted to imply that they  need 'supervision', it's just a
> fact
> > (well at least from my experience), that it helps a *lot* if you have sb
> > telling you the crucial points, doing some code review etc. when
entering
> a new
> > world.
> >
> > > And treat these people as they are - contributors - as you are, as I
am.
> > > They are not newbies.  Today it might be the first time they code in
> > > Objective-C - this does not make them newbies anyway - and tomorrow it
> > > will be the second time, and the day after they will probably know
more
> > > about Objective-C than we do.
> >
> > Well, perhaps I have a wrong understanding of the term newbie, but
anyway,
> it's
> > just a word... what is important is the message! And there I think we
> > agree...;-)
> >
>
 Lots of good tutorials are needed.

 I would say also that a good TODO list should contain a lot of detail in
how
 the program's user interface should be designed. There will be a lot of
 people who admire the famed simplicity of the Openstep user interface but
 won't have had experience using it - such as myself.

 Maybe just a good set of guidelines on how programs "should/could" look and
 feel under this environment will be sufficient. NeXt, GnuStep have some
 rather unique widgets from my first impressions.

 For example, I really like the look of the file manager in Next but have no
 details on its user interface design and features so wouldn't know where to
 start writing it. The same can be said about the other apps that would make
 up such a distribution.

 Attracting developers is both interesting and difficult. From a marketing
 point of view I would say the following points need to be hammered home to
 "newbies" like myself:

 1) Simplicity and elegance of user interface ( I find GTK/GNOME and KDE
 cluttered and messy)
 2) Ease of development - especially with interface builder
 3) Objective C looks really sexy to a C programmer who isn't keen on C++
 4) The JIGS interface looks interesting to me as a Java programmer. I get
 the impression that other projects overlook Java programmers.

 Hope that helps - if you want to ask a "newbie" who already is an
 experienced programmer what my perspective is in more detail then please
do.

 Roman.